Conversations with a Devout Muslim!

Sometimes when I am on Youtube.com listening to videos, I can get into some interesting discussioins with people of other faiths. In fact, I have found it an effective way to share your faith. These conversations are especially interesting, not to mention, economical, when the people you're talking to often live in an entirely different country, and it costs you nothing.

Below is just a snippit of a conversation I had last night with a devout Muslim who's handle is Webdawah. My handle as you'll notice, is Livrevoar. I had no intention of getting into a debate. But after seeing a video he shot that completely slammed the Incarnation of Christ, I felt I had to share with him the truth by posting a comment. Within minutes, however, he had already shot a comment back refuting my first comment. It got really fun after that.

The conversation starts in the paragraph below. My first comment was a response to a video he shot attacking the idea that God could undero Incarnation (The Incarnation is the doctrine which teaches that God became a man when Christ was born in Bethlehem. His argument was that just as an ice-cube melts, and is no longer an ice-cube, and just as a baby grows up, and is no longer a baby, for God to become a man, he would no longer be God:

livrevoar
You have obviously confused the incarnation (God becoming man) with Modalism (the idea that God became solely a man and was no longer Spirit). This definition does not fit how Jesus speaks of Himself as being God in the flesh "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), as well as being distinct from God the Father "glorify me with thine own self, with the glory that I had with thee before the world began (John 17:5). . .

livrevoar
Yet, notice that in both of the references below, Jesus is making the bold assertion that he is God; enjoying glory with God before the world's creation, and being of one substance with God. Christianity is based on the assertion of John 1:1 that the "word" referring to Jesus Christ "was God," and that the "word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

webdawah
If Christianity is based on John 1:1, that means Christianity began around 70 years after Jesus(pbuh). The Gospel according to John was written at least 70 years after Jesus(pbuh).

livrevoar
Christianity alone offers a genuine relationship with God, because it teaches us that God is not only transcendent, but also immanant. He was prophesied as "Emmanuel" (Isaiah 8:8) which is translated "God with us." This solemn title cannot tell us anything rational about Jesus Christ if it is not telling us that he is God incarnate. Turn to him for forgiveness of sins. He loves you, and after all your good deeds fall short of pleasing God, only Christ alone can grant you access to God.

webdawah
If Jesus said that he and God are one, and to you he meant it leterally, that means we talk of a duality, no more a trinity

livrevoar
Webdawah. LOL. Notice how you read the word "duality" into my words, when I used no such word. My argument was, however, that Jesus and God are part of the same substance, and that is understood in relation to the perfect Trinity. The Trinitarian distinction is inevitable when you understand that Jesus not only claims to be of one substance with the Father; he also claims to be of one substance with the Holy Spirit when he comforts his disciples by saying, "I will not leave you comfortless-I will come unto you (John 14:18).

webdawah
I did not read duality into your words. 1 is a complete number, and is definate. Me and the father are 1, completely excludes the holy spirit...hence a duality.

livrevoar
Not to belabor the point, but your logic is not credible. For Jesus to say that "I and my father are one" (John 10:30) is actually a beautiful formulation of the Trinity. He is one with the father. He is also one with the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-18). Because Jesus does not make a comprehensive (all-encompassing) formulation of the Trinity in John 10:30 does not in any way limit himself to a duality. You would not even apply this logic to yourself. Let me give you an example:

livrevoar
If you were to say, "I am going to visit family in London." And a month after you returned from your trip you say, "I am going to visit my family in Istanbul," would it not be absurd for me to attack you saying, "You have no family in Istanbul, your family is in London?" For me to force the framework of duality upon your relationship to your family would be absurd, even as it is absurd to force the same framework on the words of Christ, when nowhere in the Bible is it warranted.

webdawah
A family is dynamic. You could have cousins in Istanbul, and have siblings in London. God is 1.

livrevoar
This is where you must recognize that God is Triune (one in essence revealed in three personhoods). Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize into "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). To be baptized into Christ was to be baptized into all three. Colossians 2:9 corroborates this saying that "in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Godhead "Theotes" in the Greek, means all that is Divine).

livrevoar
It is ironic that Muhammad denied the Trinity when the Christians who influenced him before his revelations were heretics who also denied the Trinity. One such example is the monk Bahira, who lived in Syria. Muhammad was clearly borrowing from the theology he had access to, and yet it was a twisted theology that all of the branches of Christianity rejected (Look at the Council of Nicea A.D. 325, Chalcedon 425).

So much was said in countering each statement that it is remarkably hard to reproduce here without completely losing people. Our conversation, however, continues. I will try to post more of what we are talking about within the next few days, so stay tuned; logged on, or whatever.

Also, pray for Webdawah that God will open his heart to the truth. If you go to his websight, you will find 31 videos that he has shot trying to refute Christianity and he has devoted a large part of his life and energy to this end. He would rather read God's word (the Bible) with a chainsaw than with an unbiased mind.