Conversations with a Devout Muslim! (part three)

Assalamu alaikum! Peace be upn you! Below is a conversation I had with Webdawah this morning. I hope it is encouraging to you as you seek to defend the faith. It should become quickly obvious, but "livrevoar" is me, and "webdawah" is my Muslim friend:

livrevoar
Muhammad himself was so narcussistic that anyone who insulted him in any way was to suffer humiliating death, preferrably by beheading (read Sura 47:4). This was the demise of the Jewish poet, K'abbin Al-Ashraf, who was murdered because of what we would call "poetic justice."Anyone who rejected Muhammad or his message was called "the vilest of creatures" thus deserving no mercy (read Sura 98:6).Islam is anything but a religion of free thought and dialogue; it is the fingerprint of a demagogue.

webdawah
It is obvious that you don't know what reverence means. If you would express yourself without purposefully insulting others, then it's clear you want peace.

livrevoar
I don't intend to impugn Muhammad with baseless, ad hominem attacks. I believe he was a very sincere man who was convinced of his message. However, you have to understand that I only use the word "narcissist" in reference to Muhammad where it is warranted by the Qur'an. You must reflect over the following verses and remember that Muhammad's status is to be seen as "an excellent example of conduct" (Sura 33:21):

livrevoar
The first verse that indicates such narcissism is (Sura 111:1-5), where Muhammad is incensed over his uncle's apparent disbelief in his prophetic status. Muhammad proclaimed, "May the hands of Abu Lahab perish! May he himself perish! Nothing shall his wealth and gains avail him. He shall be burnt in a flaming fire, and his wife, laden with faggots, shall have a rope of fibre around her neck."

webdawah
You cannot read the Qur'an and tell the whole history of Muhammad(pbuh). He did not say the words of Surah 111:1-5 out of his own will, it was a revelation. What is the missing link is the torment, intimidation and death threats he had received from his own uncle, because he proclaimed one God.

livrevoar
Remember the Jewish tribes of Medinah, such as Banu Qurayzah and Qaynuqa, who no longer exist after their complete decimation, doubted Muhammad's prophetic status. When Muhammad was offended by the poetry of Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf, he went so far as breaking their covenant to have him killed at the hands of Muhammad bin Maslama (Bukhari: 4,56,3032. Muhammad soon despised the Jews, even saying, "You brothers of monkeys, has God disgraced you and brought his vengeance upon you."

livrevoar
In three places this same language is used in the Qur'an, equating the Jews with pigs and monkeys (2:62-65; 5:59-60,7:166). The Jews of the Qurayzah, when Muhammad's wrath brimmed over, cried, "O Muhammad, you are not a barbarous person" (Ibn Ishaq, 461). But Muahmmad, as you know, massacred every Jewish man with hair grown upon his pubes; numbering as many as 900; beheaded in one day. This confirms what the Quran teaches concernting unbelievers,"smite the necks of unbelievers"(Sura47:4)

livrevoar
It confirms what Sura 5:33 directs in the amputation of the hands and feet of unbelievers. It confirms what the Hadith teaches in the burning out of the eyes with heated iron bars, followed by leaving the subject in the desert to die, with the specific injunction that they be given no water, and that their pleas for mercy go unheard(Sahiah Bukhari, 7,76,5727). The specific instance recorded here was in reference to the punishment of shepherds who renouonced Islam.

livrevoar
The Qur'an is replete with a well developed theology if jihad against humanity, and yet you call the simple charge of "narcissism" "irreverent."As if the raping of the entire known world on every continent is not the most inhumane form of "irreverence" Satan has ever invented. Those Christians Indonesia, Sri Lanka, East Timor, and yes,the West Bank of Israel,being martyred by Islamists,are created in the image of God.They are his beloved creatures & their blood cries out for vindication.

livrevoar
But while the chief judge, Jesus Christ, prophesied as the Messiah in Daniel 9:25(Yeshua ha Mashiach),will one day bring condemnation, know that it is not my job to condemn,only to call you, who are a sinner no different than I, to repentance."It is of the Lord's mercies whereby we are not consumed because His compassions fail not" (Lam.3:22). God extends his compassion to you thru Jesus Christ, who bore your sins on the Cross. His death paid the penalty that should have brought us death.

livrevoar
But praise be to God that through his life, you too may have life, webdawah (Romans 6:4, Ephesians 2:1-5, I Peter 2:24-25).

webdawah
Equating some Jews with apes and pigs is not a detestation of Jewish people as a whole. The ones who delibrately distort their scriptures, are the ones described as despicable. Try to read in context..Sura 47:4 confirmed nothing, you should try reading Deut. 20:14 and on. Actually a Jew prescribed this punishment if you are really interested in knowing the whole story and not just what helps your argument against the Prophet(pbuh)

livrevoar
Was Ibn Ishaq's Sirat, Ibn Sa'd, and all the others simply make it up??? Or could it be that you decide what parts of the Muslim tradition actually happened and didn't happen based on what reflects faborably or unfavorably on Islam. You're only standard is expedience. No, it is not very credible to me that one of the most revered Sirat of Muhammad would pull 6-7 hundred slaughtered out of the air.

webdawah
I'd believe everything in the New Testament if I can get past the four Gospels. I'm still expecting your reaction to my "Dubious Writings" series.

webdawah
It's amazing that you mention these places where Christians have lived for generations and vastly outnumbered by Muslims. I'd expect that they would have been conpletely annihilated, but that's not the case. Isolated clashes are blown out of proportion by people like yourself who are desperate for a score against Islam.The Palestinian ambassador to the U.S. is a Christian, who blames some other people for their woes....The Jews.

livrevoar
What you don't take into account is that Christians are not desparate for a "score" against Islam. Jesus builds his church (Matt.16:18) we simply stand in awe of his splendor. Jesus Christ is Lord over all, and the day will come when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that he is Lord(Phi.2:10-11, Psalm 2:6-7, Acts 4:24-28). We are not called to score through military conquest/politics. We plant, we water, but God gives the harvest.I have to go to work,but I hope to speak more.

webdawah
Ibn Ishaq did write a biography, but did not go through isnad(the science of chain of narrators). It is known that one of his sources on this particulr event was a Jew. Could we not then be suspicious of the content? The Qur'an actually mentions the same event, without mentioning a number or hinting at a huge number for that matter.

webdawah
Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the Verse:--'And warn your tribe of near-kindred, was revealed, the Prophet ascended the Safa (mountain) and started calling, "O Bani Fihr! O Bani 'Adi!" addressing various tribes of Quraish till they were assembled. Those who could not come themselves, sent their messengers to see what was there. Abu lahab and other people from Quraish came and the Prophet then said,...

webdawah
..."Suppose I told you that there is an (enemy) cavalry in the valley intending to attack you, would you believe me?" They said, "Yes, for we have not found you telling anything other than the truth." He then said, ...

webdawah
..."I am a warner to you in face of a terrific punishment." Abu lahab said (to the Prophet) "May your hands perish all this day. Is it for this purpose you have gathered us?" Then it was revealed: "Perish the hands of Abu lahab (one of the Prophet's uncles), and perish he! His wealth and his children will not profit him...."(111.1-5)(Book #60,Hadith #293)

The conversation continues, but I had to cut it off. Although I don't get much in the way of true answers from Webdawah, but as you can tell, he is very zealous in defending Islam in light of my critique. I hope to answer some of his last statements tomorrow.

The most intruguing thing he said today was "I'd believe everything in the New Testament if I could just get past the Gospels." My ears really perked when I read this, and I think that's exactly where I'm going to go next.

Conversations with a Devout Muslim (part two)!

livrevoar
It is ironic that Muhammad denied the Trinity when the Christians who influenced him before his revelations were heretics who also denied the Trinity. One such example is the monk Bahira, who lived in Syria. Muhammad was clearly borrowing from the theology he had access to, and yet it was a twisted theology that all of the branches of Christianity rejected (Look at the Council of Nicea A.D. 325, Chalcedon 425).

webdawah
He met Bahira only once at the age of 12-14. He did not become a prophet untill he was 40. Imagine how long he would have had to keep all that knowlege of Christianity to himself without telling a soul. Besides, he had to be a genius for retaining all that information in oly one meeting.

livrevoar
Bahira is only one example. There were many renowned monks in the Arabian Peninsula such as Babira, who were Monophysitic or Nestorian. These sects were dominant in and around Mecca during the time of Muhammad. There were even Christian artifacts in the Ka'bah of Mecca that were central to these groups. This is all well-documented history that you should know. "History" in more ways than one seeing that all Jews & Christians were soundly decimated at Muhammad's behest.

webdawah Irrespective of who lived where, the revelation of the Qur'an mentioned people accusing the Prophet(pbuh) of getting information from a particular source who did not even speak in Arabic. I wonder why the Arabs who opposed him did not come up with these claims. The Qur'an even mentioned stories, while saying that none of them knew it before it revelation. I wonder why none of the opposition spoke up about fore knowledge of these things.

webdawah
You will not be able to give an unbiased or incontrovertible source that Muhammad(pbuh) decimated Jews and Christians when not at war.

livrevoar
You cannot possibly act is if there is no incontrovertible evidence. It is heart-wrenching to think that Muhammad's dying words were "turn Al-Mushrikun (all disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) out of the Arabian Peninsula (Bukhari, vol. 5, 64, 4431). To know that Muhammad's legacy of genocide lead him to exterminate not only the Jewish tribes who refused to believe exactly what he said, but all Christians and Jews. Today's Saudi Arabia with no church, and no Synagogue to be found is a tribute to his brutal legacy of death.

livrevoar
Christianity alone offers a genuine relationship with God, because it teaches us that God is not only transcendent, but also immanant. He was prophesied as "Emmanuel" (Isaiah 8:8) which is translated "God with us." This solemn title cannot tell us anything rational about Jesus Christ if it is not telling us that he is God incarnate. Turn to him for forgiveness of sins. He loves you, and after all your good deeds fall short of pleasing God, only Christ alone can grant you access to God.

webdawah
The story told about Jesus in the New Testament, does not conform with "Immanuel" of Isiah 8:8. You call it a title, but nowhere in the New testament is Jesus(pbuh) referred to as that. The sign of Immanuel was for King Ahaz, who lived during the time of Isaiah. Only God can forgive sins, all you need to do is ask.

livrevoar
Webdawah! You have not read the Gospels. The sobriquet "Emmanuel" was given to Jesus by the angel of the Lord in Matthew 1:23. Notice when you read this passage that the name "Emmanuel" was to be proclaimed at Jesus' birth in Bethlehem to proclaim that his advent was nothing less than its Hebrew meaning, "God with us."

livrevoar
when you put the pieces together and realize that this was the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy made as much as 700 years prior is phenomenal "And a virgin shall conceive and have a son, and his name shall be called, Emmanuel" (Isa. 7:14). Not only was God to be "with us" in the flesh in the form of Christ, but we are even told that he would be born of a virgin.

webdawah
I actually have read the Gospel. I even made a seires(Dubious Writings") about them. This issue of Immanuel was discussed in one of them. Check it out. I have already reponded to the descrepancies between Isaiah and Matthew. It might be in the 4th part of "Dubious Writings."

livrevoar
Webdaway: You are interesting to talk to and I appreciate your willingness to give answers to my arguments. I should have time later to continue the discussion on Trinity and Incarnation, both doctrines which are the center of the Christian faith. I am not a deluded European, however; I will not debase myself by calling Islam a religion of peace in order to buy a few more years of peace, when I know there will be no peace until either two things happen . . .

livrevoar
All the world will be beaten into submission (Dar al Islam) where you hope to successfully establish a world-wide, unified Callifate, or Jesus Christ will return with the glory of his Father and establish a kingdom of peace which will have no end (Daniel 2:44). I opt for the latter and pray that God, in his time, will open your eyes and bring you out of darkness and into his marvelous light.

webdawah
It is interesting that you quote from Daniel, but I would challenge you to show me anywhere in Daniel that speaks of Christians or Christianity. The topic of end time can also be discussed between you and me at your convenience. Whenever you are ready we can continue were we stopped and if you do not want to continue I understand. I just don't like when people start switching topics on me. I hope the one true God opens your heart to Him. Peace.

livrevoar
It is also interesting that you use the same language of God's Spirit drawing the heart of man to himself that is used in the Bible (Acts 16:14, John 6:44). But show me in the Qur'an where God lovingly draws men to himself? If there is such a warrant, how do you you square this gentle drawing with the mass carnage that is commanded in the Qur'an?

relucta
Al-Waddud = The Loving ... One of Gods beautiful 99 names

webdawah
Allahu Akbar!

webdawah
You mean this type of carnage?; Surah 4:17, 4:26, 6:12, 6:54, 6:155, 9:15, 9:26, 9:106, 9:117, 23:118, 27:46, 33:73, 39:53 etc. Be more specific.

livrevoar
You make this too easy! The entire eigth chapter of the Qur'an (Al-Anfal) is devoted to dealing with the spoils of war. Muhammad was such so devoted to the genocide of all non-Muslims that extensive paramaters had to be set to deal with all he had stolen in his raids. These were not just any raids; but raids that Muhammad provoked (Nakhla, Badr, etc) for the advancement of Islam. Not for any other reason.

livrevoar
Muhammad himself was so narcussistic that anyone who insulted him in any way was to suffer humiliating death, preferrably by beheading (read Sura 47:4). This was the demise of the Jewish poet, K'abbin Al-Ashraf, who was murdered because of what we would call "poetic justice."Anyone who rejected Muhammad or his message was called "the vilest of creatures" thus deserving no mercy (read Sura 98:6).Islam is anything but a religion of free thought and dialogue; it is the fingerprint of a demagogue.

livrevoar
More than 139 Danes have already been killed because of a cartoonist's satire of Muhammad. Yet you have never seen someone killed because they criticized the Pope, George Bush, Gordon Brown, Ghandi, the UN, or better yet, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God. What this zeitgeist among Muslims conveys is that ideas have consequences. When you follow an intolerant leader who allowed no dissent, you will foster the same intolerance.

This brings us to the end of the discussion. Webdawah, has not yet had an opportunity to respond to my last statements, but I'm sure he will. I'm sure this discussion will continue because the one thing we both have in common is that we have to have the last word. Even if it is obvious that he is not at his computer at the time I post a comment, I will go back to youtube.com days later, and find that he has responded.

Conversations with a Devout Muslim!

Sometimes when I am on Youtube.com listening to videos, I can get into some interesting discussioins with people of other faiths. In fact, I have found it an effective way to share your faith. These conversations are especially interesting, not to mention, economical, when the people you're talking to often live in an entirely different country, and it costs you nothing.

Below is just a snippit of a conversation I had last night with a devout Muslim who's handle is Webdawah. My handle as you'll notice, is Livrevoar. I had no intention of getting into a debate. But after seeing a video he shot that completely slammed the Incarnation of Christ, I felt I had to share with him the truth by posting a comment. Within minutes, however, he had already shot a comment back refuting my first comment. It got really fun after that.

The conversation starts in the paragraph below. My first comment was a response to a video he shot attacking the idea that God could undero Incarnation (The Incarnation is the doctrine which teaches that God became a man when Christ was born in Bethlehem. His argument was that just as an ice-cube melts, and is no longer an ice-cube, and just as a baby grows up, and is no longer a baby, for God to become a man, he would no longer be God:

livrevoar
You have obviously confused the incarnation (God becoming man) with Modalism (the idea that God became solely a man and was no longer Spirit). This definition does not fit how Jesus speaks of Himself as being God in the flesh "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), as well as being distinct from God the Father "glorify me with thine own self, with the glory that I had with thee before the world began (John 17:5). . .

livrevoar
Yet, notice that in both of the references below, Jesus is making the bold assertion that he is God; enjoying glory with God before the world's creation, and being of one substance with God. Christianity is based on the assertion of John 1:1 that the "word" referring to Jesus Christ "was God," and that the "word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

webdawah
If Christianity is based on John 1:1, that means Christianity began around 70 years after Jesus(pbuh). The Gospel according to John was written at least 70 years after Jesus(pbuh).

livrevoar
Christianity alone offers a genuine relationship with God, because it teaches us that God is not only transcendent, but also immanant. He was prophesied as "Emmanuel" (Isaiah 8:8) which is translated "God with us." This solemn title cannot tell us anything rational about Jesus Christ if it is not telling us that he is God incarnate. Turn to him for forgiveness of sins. He loves you, and after all your good deeds fall short of pleasing God, only Christ alone can grant you access to God.

webdawah
If Jesus said that he and God are one, and to you he meant it leterally, that means we talk of a duality, no more a trinity

livrevoar
Webdawah. LOL. Notice how you read the word "duality" into my words, when I used no such word. My argument was, however, that Jesus and God are part of the same substance, and that is understood in relation to the perfect Trinity. The Trinitarian distinction is inevitable when you understand that Jesus not only claims to be of one substance with the Father; he also claims to be of one substance with the Holy Spirit when he comforts his disciples by saying, "I will not leave you comfortless-I will come unto you (John 14:18).

webdawah
I did not read duality into your words. 1 is a complete number, and is definate. Me and the father are 1, completely excludes the holy spirit...hence a duality.

livrevoar
Not to belabor the point, but your logic is not credible. For Jesus to say that "I and my father are one" (John 10:30) is actually a beautiful formulation of the Trinity. He is one with the father. He is also one with the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-18). Because Jesus does not make a comprehensive (all-encompassing) formulation of the Trinity in John 10:30 does not in any way limit himself to a duality. You would not even apply this logic to yourself. Let me give you an example:

livrevoar
If you were to say, "I am going to visit family in London." And a month after you returned from your trip you say, "I am going to visit my family in Istanbul," would it not be absurd for me to attack you saying, "You have no family in Istanbul, your family is in London?" For me to force the framework of duality upon your relationship to your family would be absurd, even as it is absurd to force the same framework on the words of Christ, when nowhere in the Bible is it warranted.

webdawah
A family is dynamic. You could have cousins in Istanbul, and have siblings in London. God is 1.

livrevoar
This is where you must recognize that God is Triune (one in essence revealed in three personhoods). Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize into "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). To be baptized into Christ was to be baptized into all three. Colossians 2:9 corroborates this saying that "in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Godhead "Theotes" in the Greek, means all that is Divine).

livrevoar
It is ironic that Muhammad denied the Trinity when the Christians who influenced him before his revelations were heretics who also denied the Trinity. One such example is the monk Bahira, who lived in Syria. Muhammad was clearly borrowing from the theology he had access to, and yet it was a twisted theology that all of the branches of Christianity rejected (Look at the Council of Nicea A.D. 325, Chalcedon 425).

So much was said in countering each statement that it is remarkably hard to reproduce here without completely losing people. Our conversation, however, continues. I will try to post more of what we are talking about within the next few days, so stay tuned; logged on, or whatever.

Also, pray for Webdawah that God will open his heart to the truth. If you go to his websight, you will find 31 videos that he has shot trying to refute Christianity and he has devoted a large part of his life and energy to this end. He would rather read God's word (the Bible) with a chainsaw than with an unbiased mind.